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Old 11-13-2019, 08:46 AM
Ulodesk Ulodesk is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 7 64bit Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2013
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Default Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure

I am being asked to recreate our company templates from scratch, changing style shortcuts to avoid styles using the same shortcuts in older documents corrupting our current styles when paragraphs or parts are directly pasted in. I am also being asked to change our custom bullet list style, from a single list style using four of the nine levels, to four individual list styles, each using only 1 level but replicating the cascading indents in our current series.

The rationale for this second request, is that it will prevent a recurring problem with bullets disappearing during work on a document based on the template by multiple writers using SharePoint, because the levels are linked together in a single list style.



I strongly disagree with this proposal. The cause of disappearing bullets, heading numbers, and other list-style-based lists (all created from Shauna K's instructions), in my opinion, has to do with 1) direct pasting from who-knows-what by contributors with Word options set up who-knows-how; 2) SharePoint's divorcing the document from the template and reverting to Normal, and probably additional related such factors.

Creating four bullet list styles where one is called for will solve nothing, in my view, and has nothing to do with the fact that the list style links the levels together.

I would be grateful for any expert confirmation, or correction, on this matter.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:39 AM
Charles Kenyon Charles Kenyon is online now Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2016
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Confirmation:


These are older webpages but as true today as when written. These are the way to have stable bullets and numbering. Bullets and numbering should be done using the appropriate paragraph styles (not list styles).


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Old 11-13-2019, 03:13 PM
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Changing keyboard shortcuts won't solve the issue of legacy styles pasting in. You will need a macro to remove/reallocate those styles when they are spotted.

On the list front, I agree with you. It makes no sense to separate the four levels into 4 separate lists. Multi-authoring is not the greatest thing ever but it isn't to blame for paragraphs losing their formatting. If the style definitions are right, selecting the text and pressing Ctrl-Shift and Ctrl-Spacebar should return the list paragraphs to their full glory.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:38 AM
Ulodesk Ulodesk is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 7 64bit Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2013
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Andrew, thanks for your comment; sorry for delay in responding.
I am familiar with clearing styles as you suggest; our problem is that the definitions get whacked, e.g., the bullets all disappear, requiring reapplication of, usually, the bullets and list style (to reconnect the styles with the list style) from the template.
Anyway, I am at this point following directives rather than trying to argue further. I don't think the problems will disappear, but who knows? Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:32 PM
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Stefan Blom Stefan Blom is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2019
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Originally Posted by Ulodesk View Post
Andrew, thanks for your comment; sorry for delay in responding.
I am familiar with clearing styles as you suggest; our problem is that the definitions get whacked, e.g., the bullets all disappear, requiring reapplication of, usually, the bullets and list style (to reconnect the styles with the list style) from the template.
Anyway, I am at this point following directives rather than trying to argue further. I don't think the problems will disappear, but who knows? Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
What you are describing shouldn't happen; that is, formatting shouldn't disappear for no apparent reason. Once set up with styles, formatting is generally stable in Word. For numbered and bulleted lists, specifically, setting up the numbering with styles, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, should prevent formatting from being lost.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:08 AM
Ulodesk Ulodesk is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 7 64bit Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2013
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Hi, Stephan. Indeed, it shouldn't, and I have been scrupulous about setting up the styles in our custom templates, with Shauna Kelley as my bible reference on list styles especially. I am not a coder or anything close, so I can't tell you why these things happen, but they do, and regularly. My opinion -- and it's only that, of course -- is that the number of variables in our work environment simply leaves numerous places for gremlins to step in, be they Word's exceptionally complex feature set; working on SharePoint with as many as 8 authors in a document at once from all over the country, some possibly with different versions of Word, set up in various ways; "user error," the polite term for the sometimes whacky things said users do in Word; corporate network idiosyncrasies, security features bottling up traffic, etc., and or any and all of the above in combination. Quite a soup.
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:33 PM
Charles Kenyon Charles Kenyon is online now Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2016
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What likely happens is that someone applies numbering using the buttons on the Home tab rather than by selecting appropriate styles.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:11 AM
Ulodesk Ulodesk is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 7 64bit Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2013
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Charles, that's a very interesting observation and the first time I have received such an hypothesis. How do you suppose it functions to create the problem?
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:13 AM
Charles Kenyon Charles Kenyon is online now Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2016
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Charles, that's a very interesting observation and the first time I have received such an hypothesis. How do you suppose it functions to create the problem?
Using the buttons instead of applying numbering styles creates new numbering lists, I believe. The technical term is "spaghetti numbering."

Compared to many, I am a duffer when it comes to numbering, though.

Last edited by Charles Kenyon; 11-21-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:17 PM
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What likely happens is that someone applies numbering using the buttons on the Home tab rather than by selecting appropriate styles.
Good point!
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:33 PM
WordUser789 WordUser789 is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2016
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I've been hunting this issue for years. It seems to be an interaction between Word, SharePoint and multiple users editing the same document. I find that when you have a document that has fairly extensive edits from multiple people at the same time, the numbering and bullets start disappearing and it doesn't stop happening from there on. Refreshing the styles from the template works, but given that first it's a procedure most users need to be told about and second that the particular template lives on my computer rather than on SharePoint (I tried that, but it's hard to link to from there) I end up being the only one who can fix it. Meanwhile, everyone else has to keep editing a document with missing numbering and bullets. The styles are all properly applied, it's just that the numbering and indents are missing. This seems to be because the list styles lose their links to the paragraph styles. I went back to a previous document and found a version that had the numbering and bullets correct (list styles on the left) and one where they were missing (the list styles on the right).

You can see the circled list styles where they are no longer linked properly. All people are doing is editing the content, not pasting anything new.

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Old 09-14-2021, 08:15 PM
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My working theory is that one (or more) of your authors is using the browser editing rather than opening the file with the Word application. I'm pretty sure the issues with lists are spawned by the browser editor.

I would recommend you configure Sharepoint to open the doc in the application to avoid the default browser view tempting your authors. And ask around to find out who edits via the browser or Word.
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Old 09-14-2021, 08:31 PM
Charles Kenyon Charles Kenyon is online now Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2019
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I concur in Andrew's guess.

If you create your numbering in multi-level lists attached to styles (see links in my first response in this thread) and consistently use styles to number paragraphs, it will work seamlessly across multiple editors and edits. However, that is a big if.
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Old 09-15-2021, 03:11 PM
WordUser789 WordUser789 is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2016
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Yep, like anyone who's been around the forums for a while I was introduced to the Shauna Kelly site and everything is set up that way. It's been a while since I worked in a team off a server, but I'm pretty sure this issue didn't happen then and it's only since we've transitioned to SharePoint that this has appeared.

I'm not opposed to your theory about the browser view messing it all up. I've tried to troubleshoot it before but everyone I've asked swears they are using the application, and I always set up the SharePoint libraries to use the application rather than editing in the browser (so clicking opens Word). You can't entirely prevent the web browser from coming into it though, because if you send a link to a file (rather than a location) in an email, clicking on it will open the document in the browser no matter what your settings are.

I wish there was a way to disable the browser editor entirely. I hate it I hate it I hate it and want it to play no part in any workflow I'm in charge of.

Is there any way to tell after the fact if a document has been edited in the browser rather than in the application?
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Old 09-16-2021, 06:06 AM
Ulodesk Ulodesk is offline Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Windows 10 Looking for expert confirmation on list style procedure Office 2016
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Thanks to all for continuing the sleuthing after my original post.

A colleague at work spend some months working on this with Microsoft and our corporate specialists. Opening documents in web/, on a tablet or phone (I understand the latter two automatically open in browser mode) has been determined definitely to cause problems. I suspect that even quick slip by someone can effect the damage to the autonumbering.

He has access to some log (SharePoint admin?) that allows him to see a lot about document history and who has done what. I don't know if it includes seeing if someone has opened in browser mode.

The separation from the template appears to be a contributing factor, for which no solution appears on the horizon. And our experience indicates that the more users are in the document, e.g., 5-7, and the larger the document (ours are often 100 pages and more and sometimes weighty with graphics), the more likely a problem is to erupt, whether that comes from the amount of activity, pasting formatted text in directly, and/or using the ribbon bullets or numbers.
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