[Word 97] Different First Page Footer Issue

[dw85745]

In Page SetUp > Layout I selected different first page.


I then set the Margins for the First Page.


At the End of the First Page I inserted a Section Break.
After placing the cursor AFTER the Section Break Line,

In Page SetUp > Layout I selected > "this Point Forward".
I then set different Margins for the (Second) Page.
The margins appear to apply to all subsequent pages.


IN THE BELIEF that anything I would put into the Second Page Header or Footer would apply to all subsequent pages, I then entered the Page Number and Number of Pages in the Footer on the Second Page.


The Page Number appears and is correct for the Second Pages BUT the Page Number IS MISSING in the Footer for all subsequent pages.


NOTE: At the End of the Second Page I have a hard page break.

[Guessed]

You formatted the only Section in the document with a different first page. Then you added a section break so both Sections in the document have a different first page.

So if you add a page number to the first page footer of Section 2 then that is the only page the page number appears on. You should put the page number on the subsequent footers if that is what you want. Or turn off the different first page for the second section before you add the page number.

If your first section is intended to be only one page then you can avoid the different first page completely.

[Charles Kenyon]

You do not want to change the margins for the first page. You want to simulate different margins by using the Different First Page setting.
See:

• Setting Up Letter Templates - Ribbon by Suzanne Barnhill, MVP
• How can I get a different header/footer on the second page?
• Letterhead Textboxes and Styles Tutorial
• Margins and Indents in Word
• Header/Footer Settings Recap
• When to use Section breaks in Microsoft Word (and when to not use Section Breaks)

[Stefan Blom]

You can't change the margins for part of a section.

As Charles wrote, you can fake separate margins for the first page by following Suzanne S. Barnhill's instructions; see Setting Up Letter Templates.

[dw85745]

First. Thank you ALL for responding.
Stefan Blom: FWIW the link shows the site is insecure. Most likely the certificate has not been updated.


=================
NOW MY PROBLEM &*^%$
=================
1. The Court wants a 2 inch top margin on the first page and no page number.
2. For the second and all subsequent pages, the Court wants a 1.5 inch top margin
on the second page and the second page AND all subsequent pages to be sequentially numbered.
================================================
I create a section break between the first and second pages.
I then went to the second page in Page LayOut and selected > Different First Page.

I then went to the First Page > Page Setup > set a 2 inch margin for the first page.
I then went to the Second page > Page SetUp > set a 1.5 inch top margin.
I then created textboxes to hold pleading numbers on both Page 1 and Page 2.
Everything aligns (body text and pleading numbers).
The Page 2 textbox and pleading numbers carry forward correctly to all subsequent pages.

After typing the document, I went to footer to put in the page numbers.
This is where the problem appears to be.
Page 1 Footer shows: Footer Section 1
Page 2 Footer shows: First Page Footer Section 2

When I enter the Page number and Number of pages on the second page,
it does NOT carry forward to the subsequent pages. If I also add
Page number and Number of pages on the third page, it does NOT appear
to count the pages, showing ALL as page 3.

WHERE AM I GOING WRONG?

Page

[Stefan Blom]

Stefan Blom: FWIW the link shows the site is insecure. Most likely the certificate has not been updated.

In this case, the alert means that the site is using the http protocol (not https).

[Stefan Blom]

I create a section break between the first and second pages.
I then went to the second page in Page LayOut and selected > Different First Page.

I then went to the First Page > Page Setup > set a 2 inch margin for the first page.
I then went to the Second page > Page SetUp > set a 1.5 inch top margin.
I then created textboxes to hold pleading numbers on both Page 1 and Page 2.
Everything aligns (body text and pleading numbers).
The Page 2 textbox and pleading numbers carry forward correctly to all subsequent pages.

After typing the document, I went to footer to put in the page numbers.
This is where the problem appears to be.
Page 1 Footer shows: Footer Section 1
Page 2 Footer shows: First Page Footer Section 2

When I enter the Page number and Number of pages on the second page,
it does NOT carry forward to the subsequent pages. If I also add
Page number and Number of pages on the third page, it does NOT appear
to count the pages, showing ALL as page 3.

WHERE AM I GOING WRONG?

When there are multiple footers, and you want the page number field in all of them, you must add the field to each footer.

Double-click the header to activate the header/footer area, click where you want the page number field and insert it with Alt+Shift+P. Go to other footers, as required and repeat the insertion of the page number field.

Note that when you make use of "Different first page" to deal with the margins, you probably don't need a section break at the end of the first page, which would simplify the document by reducing the number of sections.

[dw85745]

Mr. Blom: Thanks for responding.

Note that when you make use of "Different first page" to deal with the margins, you probably don't need a section break at the end of the first page, which would simplify the document by reducing the number of sections.

I tried using "Different first page" ONLY (without a section break), and it would NOT accept different Margins on the First AND (2nd + subsequent) pages. I'm guessing for 2nd page on I should be using "This Point Forward" (which I am) and NOT "Whole Document". With "Different First Page" what should the selection be "This section"?

[Charles Kenyon]

Originally Posted by dw85745

1. The Court wants a 2 inch top margin on the first page and no page number.
2. For the second and all subsequent pages, the Court wants a 1.5 inch top margin
on the second page and the second page AND all subsequent pages to be sequentially numbered.
================================================
I create a section break between the first and second pages.
I then went to the second page in Page LayOut and selected > Different First Page.

NO SECTION BREAK

Set the top margin for 1.5 inches.

Edit the header and set it for Different First Page.

On the first page header, put something in the header which is invisible and take an extra half-inch. Something like a blank borderless text box or an empty paragraph or two. That substitutes for the 2 inch top margin for page 1 without any section break.

Do not put any page number in the first-page footer.
Do insert a page number in the main footer.

Put your line numbering in both the first-page header and the continuation page header.

I know it is annoying but I gave you those links because they help you understand what is happening.

I am a lawyer. I have been producing pleadings in Word for more than thirty years now.

I understand that you are not producing letterhead, but the concepts are the same. You are faking a different margin on the first page by putting something in the header. That unneeded section break is the cause of much of your frustration.

[Charles Kenyon]

Originally Posted by dw85745

***

When I enter the Page number and Number of pages on the second page,
it does NOT carry forward to the subsequent pages. If I also add
Page number and Number of pages on the third page, it does NOT appear
to count the pages, showing ALL as page 3.

Page Numbers, in Word, are fields. They are never something that you type. You insert the field.

• Page Numbers in Word 2007-2021 (365)
• Pagination Fields
• Dealing with Fields in Microsoft Word

Every Section in Word has three footers and three headers, whether or not you see them. Header/Footer, First Page H/F, Even Page H/F. These are discrete parts of the section and have nothing to do with link to previous. Link to Previous can connect a header or footer of one type to the one of the same type in the previous section.

So if you are using more than one of these types, you have to repeat the same content in each header or footer you are using in a section. The First-Page header is a different header from the "Header" (or the "Odd-Page Header") or the "Even-Page Header."

• Header/Footer Settings Recap
• When to use Section breaks in Microsoft Word (and when to not use Section Breaks)

[dw85745]

Mr. Kenyon.
First thank you for responding.
In regard to:

NO SECTION BREAK

Set the top margin for 1.5 inches.

Edit the header and set it for Different First Page.

On the first page header, put something in the header which is invisible and take an extra half-inch. Something like a blank borderless text box or an empty paragraph or two. That substitutes for the 2 inch top margin for page 1 without any section break.

Do not put any page number in the first-page footer.
Do insert a page number in the main footer.

Put your line numbering in both the first-page header and the continuation page header.

I know it is annoying but I gave you those links because they help you understand what is happening.

I am a lawyer. I have been producing pleadings in Word for more than thirty years now.

I understand that you are not producing letterhead, but the concepts are the same. You are faking a different margin on the first page by putting something in the header. That unneeded section break is the cause of much of your frustration.

Following the above, Everything appears to be working per the Courts requirements other than I'm still a little confused over the First page Header setting.


I selected "Different First Page" > Top Margin 1.5 inch > Apply to Whole Document.
I then changed Page Setup Header setting to 2.0 inches.
I initially put in a textbox (which somewhere along the line disappeared), so
I used 3 paragraphs (empty) instead, which appears to have widen the header, and pushed
down the body lines.
The header on page 2 and subsequent pages does NOT seem to contain the three (3) empty paragraphs.
Since word does NOT appear to have a vertical ruler, it is hard to tell what the top margins are without printing or measuring, but based on my visual there appears that page 1 is different than page 2 onward.
So things have changed significantly for the better.
I also added footer page numbering starting on page 2, and page number works correctly, with no page number reflected on page 1.


Sorry for the disconnect on the field issue. I realize when one selects page and number of pages from the floating header/footer toolbar they are getting a field Not text.

[Stefan Blom]

Originally Posted by dw85745

Mr. Blom: Thanks for responding.

I tried using "Different first page" ONLY (without a section break), and it would NOT accept different Margins on the First AND (2nd + subsequent) pages. I'm guessing for 2nd page on I should be using "This Point Forward" (which I am) and NOT "Whole Document". With "Different First Page" what should the selection be "This section"?

You can't change the actual margins without adding a section break, as stated previously. But you can use a workaround.

[Charles Kenyon]

Originally Posted by dw85745

Mr. Kenyon.
***
Since word does NOT appear to have a vertical ruler, it is hard to tell what the top margins are without printing or measuring, but based on my visual there appears that page 1 is different than page 2 onward
***

Word does have a vertical ruler. It appears on the left side of the window.

Do not adjust the placement of the header. That should be the same for all pages in your document. This is a setting for the section so cannot be different on different pages within the section. Like the margins, set it once. You only want one section for all of this.

I realize that this is confusing. Please take the time to look at the linked pages.

Our jurisdiction does not use line numbering in pleadings. Generally, they are on plain paper. Mine get a bit fancier because I am old-school. I have left and right rules plus having my name, address, and phone in the left margin.

I date back to when we purchased special ruled paper for pleadings and used covers or caps. Pleadings and other documents were typed on typewriters with onion skin copies.

[dw85745]

Again, thank you for all responses and taking your time to resolve this.

Mr. Blom:

You can't change the actual margins without adding a section break, as stated previously. But you can use a workaround.

I now get that, with Mr. Kenyon offering the workaround by using the same margins.


Mr. Kenyon:

Word does have a vertical ruler.

Found it but only shows in [Word 97] Page Layout. The problem with the ruler as I see it is two rulers in one. From the top of the page to the bottom of the header it is difficult to tell what is the measurement on the ruler. From the bottom of the header down, one can take a measurement. It would be nice if word could invoke a cross hair cursor or horizontal line cursor, so one could do an easy takeoff on the ruler, as left margin separating (empty space) makes it difficult to known what is the ruler value.

Do not adjust the placement of the header. That should be the same for all pages in your document. This is a setting for the section so cannot be different on different pages within the section. Like the margins, set it once. You only want one section for all of this.

I went back and changed the header value to 1.5 inch the same as the top margin (1.5 inch), and then added the 3 paragraph symbols so looks better, but will know for sure when I print.

Please take the time to look at the linked pages.

In my defense I did, and read one or two of the provided links - internet search - before posting this thread.
Explanations were as clear as mud, hence post.

typed on typewriters with onion skin copies.

I learned to type on a manual as electric had not yet come out.
IMHO this is part of my problem. Still think I'm dealing with a typewriter at times, instead of a word processor, which has a lot more options. Knowing what those options are and how to apply them is part of the learning curve I'm climbing.

[Charles Kenyon]

The following short series of lessons starts with the reminder that Word is not a typewriter.
Basic concepts of Microsoft Word: An introduction by Shauna Kelly, MVP

It will be well worth your time.

If you can find it, a book your would find interesting is Woody Leonhard's "Word 97 Annoyances".